need some answers about getting started

[ozzy]

hello,

I am unsure about how the numbers add up when you figure weight, my license is good up to 26000 lbs.

I see the w car wedge is pretty much good up to 18000 lbs. but when I looked more into this it just doesn't fall below 26k.

I sampled 2 cars, 1 a 300c is 5300lbs and a durango around 6000lbs. So lets say a mixture of these type of cars will total 18000 lbs, which is acceptable to the trailer max load weight.

so I have 18000lbs plus what the trailer weight about 6000lb plus the fifth wheel truck which are around 10000lbs. I am around 35000lbs.

how are these figures working when I want to keep my license and be legal? or without bothering with a cdl.

thanks

[Buster]

They don't work out and thats why you need a CDL to be legal. My old setup was a Dodge 2500 converted to dually. It weighted 8800lbs. My trailer was a Sooner all aluminum wedge that weighted 5000lbs and was rated at 21000lbs. Truck and trailer weighted 13800lbs. That left me 12200lbs of weight available. The average car at 4000lbs kept me just under the 26k magic number but my truck was not legal due to the rear axle weight. Most of these guys running a dually weighting 10k and pulling a trailer that weights 9k can not legal 3 cars without a CDL.

[pmmjarrett]

CDL is based on rated weights not actual weight. Buster you actually needed a CDL if your pickup had a GVWR of over 5000 lbs.

If the GVWR of the trailer is over 10,000 lbs and the GCWR (GVWR of the truck + the trailer) is 26,001 lbs and higher you will have to have a CDL-A

If your trailer has a GVWR of 18,000, your truck must have a GVW of 8,000 lbs or less to be able to run commercially without a CDL-A....... It ain't happening with a dually.


Here are the FMCSA Rules for a CDL (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm)

[Microsoftsteve]

pmmjarrett. that is correct, that guys trailer is 21000 gvwr with that truck he would have been close to 30 gvcwr with truck and trailer. Cdl no matter what. 90% of the dually guys don't get it. They run without irp plates with 3 axle trailers and they only think they have to weigh less than 26001 which is not true. I know Buster knows his stuff and that was probably a typo error but you are completely correct with your statement. They only care about the gvcwr of your truck and trailer. How much u choose to haul doesn't matter at all. Get the CDL and then all of those worries will go away. Good luck and I'd start looking for a 4500-5500 series because the next issue will be your rear axle weight rating.

[NDanecker]

My old setup was a Dodge 2500 converted to dually. It weighted 8800lbs. My trailer was a Sooner all aluminum wedge that weighted 5000lbs and was rated at 21000lbs. Truck and trailer weighted 13800lbs.

Hey Buster! How did you make out with the converted dually? Did you get hassled about the axle weight?

If you look closely at the GVW rating you'll see they MFG gives an axle rating WITH e-rated tires. If you have G-rated tires (which I have) with the much higher rating do you think the DOT will allow it? And if you are caught with the over rear axle what is the fine, and would they still allow you to continue?

I don't haul - yet. I've been reading and learning for the past 1 1/2 years just in case my day job gives out and in this economy I can't believe it hasn't happened yet. Our company has downsized from over 120+ people to about 53. I know hauling is probably not the best thing to get into in this economy, but for some reason it seriously interests me. So to start out I'd rather use what I have for a few months before I invest in a class 7 or other.

[ozzy]

thanks for the replies everyone.

It seems that since I haven't had too much in investment yet, it maybe better to go do the cdl class A. this way I can make sure I won't be biting my finger nails.

The other issue is I have driven a small hitched trailer before, but really I don't think I am well trained to enter tight circumstances yet with a lot longer trailer.

last thing I want to do is get into something investment wise where I am forced to make payments and the bread can't be made because I have restrictions.

[Buster]

pmmjarrett, I'm not sure I'm reading this right but you may have me on this one. Are you saying that a Dually pickup requires a CDL? All of them that I know of have a GVWR of over 5000lbs. I don't know but, if your correct then most any full sized pickup would require a CDL. My statement was meant more for total weights though.

NDanecker, I was never questioned on the conversion but I only ran it for about 5-6 months and was taking a HUGE chance even then. The tire rating will not increase your axle rating. Only decrease it if you run lighter duty tires. The fine varies from place to place (over $1000 in CA) but I do not think a competent DOT officer would allow you to leave the scales with this setup. To much liability. I was stupid to take the chance I took and HIGHLY recommend no one else take the chance either.

[tbc27143]

Here it is simply put:

Truck data plate wt (+) trailer data plate wt = over 26K a cdl is required.

If your data plates added together is less than 26K no cdl required. However if the actual load exceeds 26K then a cdl is required.

A CDL is not the only thing required over 26K. IFTA sticker is also required which will require Apportion plates. If you go over 26K then everything is the same as the big trucks.

[cosgo]

Dont forget if your trailer is over 10,000 lbs, you will need a cdl

[pmmjarrett]

pmmjarrett, I'm not sure I'm reading this right but you may have me on this one. Are you saying that a Dually pickup requires a CDL? All of them that I know of have a GVWR of over 5000lbs. I don't know but, if your correct then most any full sized pickup would require a CDL. My statement was meant more for total weights though.

NDanecker, I was never questioned on the conversion but I only ran it for about 5-6 months and was taking a HUGE chance even then. The tire rating will not increase your axle rating. Only decrease it if you run lighter duty tires. The fine varies from place to place (over $1000 in CA) but I do not think a competent DOT officer would allow you to leave the scales with this setup. To much liability. I was stupid to take the chance I took and HIGHLY recommend no one else take the chance either.

This is for those who are new to these terms or really don't understand them.

GVW = gross vehicle weight = actual weight NOT plated or rated weight
GVWR = gros vehicle weight rating = weight rating on data tag of truck or trailer.
GCWR = Gross combination weight rating = data plate weights of truck and trailer combined, not actual weight.

Doesn't matter if it's a dually or not. Matters what the data plates read. A My old Toyota Tacoma with a 5100 lb GVWR would have required a CDL-A with your 21k gvwr trailer. Most duallies are around 11,000 - 14,000 gvwr and SRW 1 tons and 3/4 tons ain't too much lower.

21000 trailer gvwr
+5100 truck gvwr
26100 gcwr

Conditions:
1). Combination vehicle - YES
2}. trailer GVWR over 10000 lbs - YES
3). GCWR truck and trailer 26001 lbs or over - YES

Result = Class A CDL required when all 3 conditions are YES.

You got lucky you were not popped with a 3/4 ton.

[Brisco]

Conditions:
1). Combination vehicle - YES
2}. trailer GVWR over 10000 lbs - YES
3). GCWR truck and trailer 26001 lbs or over - YES

Result = Class A CDL required.

All these years I've never seen it broke down like this.

Haulin....you gettin' this?? Once the Troopers figure it out like this, your livin' on borrowed time may finally come to an end.;)

[NDanecker]

NDanecker, I was never questioned on the conversion but I only ran it for about 5-6 months and was taking a HUGE chance even then. The tire rating will not increase your axle rating. Only decrease it if you run lighter duty tires. The fine varies from place to place (over $1000 in CA) but I do not think a competent DOT officer would allow you to leave the scales with this setup. To much liability. I was stupid to take the chance I took and HIGHLY recommend no one else take the chance either.

Good advice. Thanks for you comments! :)

If and when the time comes I think I'd just get a single axle Ryder special for under $20k......and then keep the Dodge for personal use. It seems everyone who starts out with a 1 ton eventually ends up with a single or dual axle class 8 anyways. Why beat up my personal truck when a FL is built for this kind of stuff. Dodge, although a great weekend truck, really isn't designed for the abuse of heavy hauling, IMO.

[pmmjarrett]

All these years I've never seen it broke down like this.

Haulin....you gettin' this?? Once the Troopers figure it out like this, your livin' on borrowed time may finally come to an end.;)

:eek: I thought he had gotten his CDL

BTW, they do have it figured out, especially Missouri, Oklahoma, Montana, Iowa, North Dakota and Indiana.

And I know for a fact that Missouri, Montana, Oklahoma and Iowa WILL shut you down, fine you and then you have to get a driver with a CDL to move it off the scales. I've moved plenty of Reloads off their scales when I was doing single RVs with my dually because some dum dum would dispatch themselves on an 18k toyhauler and not have a CDL.

The gooberment lawmakers can't write a law that is simple to understand, can't make as much money off ya if it's simple, make more money by baffling everybody with hard to read bullshit and acronyms.

Best advice I can give somebody is to read the federal commercial vehicle regs.... ALL of them..... and keep reading them from time to time. Then dig through state regs in areas you run for your specific truck combinations and know those laws.

You don't have to memorize everything, but you do need to know what applies to you and don't be afraid to walk into a scalehouse or approach a DOT officer and ask a question...... Prefferably BEFORE you run something or do something that might be illegal.

I was stopped in Idaho about 2AM last fall with my old haul and tow truck with 2 dutchmen travel trailers I just picked up in Burley ID. (one on the deck and one behind the truck.)

1st... He ran up to the drivers window and yelled "You can't double tow bumper pull trailers" to which I calmly replied "If you look carefully sir, you'll see that one trailer is loaded on my truck and I am only pulling one trailer"

2nd... He says I am a commercial vehicle and don't have any reflexive tape on my trailer.... I calmly tell him I am exempt for 3 reasons... 1. It's a towaway operation, 2. it's a trailer for living or 3. It's a trailer that is used as a mobile office... He goes back with my license and registration and looks up the regs and comes back 15 minutes later for...

3rd... He comes back and tells me my breakaway cable is hooked up wrong so I get out of the truck and go back to the hitch, move the safety chain hook to the side a bit and show him that my breakaway cable is on its own hook and then I proceed to point out to him that my safety chains are also crossed and hooked up properly (yea I was getting to be a bit of a smartass now with strike 3)

4th... He asked to see my $60 Idaho permit for the unregistered trailer on the ground.... When I tell him I don't have one his eyes light up until I show him the $5 30 day temporary registration for that trailer that Dutchman issued to me in my windshield and point out that it is filled out and signed.

5th... Now he asks for my logbook (guess, I'm starting to piss him off now LOL)... I hand it to him with a smile.... It was up to date, just came off a 10 hr break and had only driven 2 miles when he pulled me over. He handed it back to me after only glancing at that days page and told me I could go, have a nice day.

Point is, I treated him politely from the start, showed him some respect, didn't let him rile me, I knew the regs for what I do better than he did, I was running legal and knew it and he gave up his witch hunt.... 5 miles up the road when I passed him after taking off from the shoulder, he already had a 4 wheeler pulled over and waved to me as I went by. Knowledge is power.

[haulin rv]

All these years I've never seen it broke down like this.

Haulin....you gettin' this?? Once the Troopers figure it out like this, your livin' on borrowed time may finally come to an end.;)

As soon as I started reading this thread I knew my name would come up sooner or later, thanks.

All I can say is I run about 30-40% of miles in Missouri and I have been inspected and never had a problem.

Oh and my truck and trailer have a gcwr of 26000 and an actual of around 13300.

[bth9461]

Just an observation, I don't run west a lot. But it always seems these big low poplation states have lots of open scales and they hassle drivers more than the more poplated states in the east. I think there DOT just has too much time on their hands. I wonder what % of their budget comes from fines.

[LBZ]

As soon as I started reading this thread I knew my name would come up sooner or later, thanks.

All I can say is I run about 30-40% of miles in Missouri and I have been inspected and never had a problem.

Oh and my truck and trailer have a gcwr of 26000 and an actual of around 13300.

Practice tests just in case you ever change your mind or anyone needs it.
http://www.cristcdl.com/otc/

You still have to read the book, but years ago when they changed the classifications we had to update & used this to help out. It is good to see the wording they use.

[smr500]

The GVWR for the trailer over 10,000 lbs requiring a CDL is an interpretation. It is not a FED regulation. I spoke with many DOT officers at the scale house when I was getting set up. I also went to the State Patrol Headquarters Carrier Division and got verifiication. Many states interpret and enforce that you do, but not mine. Cdl required when the combination of vehicles is 26001 lbs or more with a towed vehicle of 10000lbs or more. If your combo is not over 26,0001 combined but your towed vehicle is over 10,000 you by law DO NOT need a CDL. This is exactly why Haulin has not been hassled where he runs. Some states interpret/enforce this differently which is why it makes it difficult. This is exactly why you see many trailer buyers de-rate wedges down to 14k from the manufacturer when they have 3 7k axles. You can pull with a 1 ton without CDL. I ended up getting a CDL with airbrakes (tested in class8). I would recommend anyone starting up to get it due to different states enforcing this regulation differently. PG 13 has a flow chart that shows the requirement http://www.dmv.ne.gov/examining/pdf/cdlmanual.pdf

[h2oskibumz]

Haulin's setup has a trailer that was ORIGINALLY factory rated at 18k which, with his Megacab (@10,800 I think) would have required a CDL.

SOMEWHERE along the line, that trailer was DE-rated to 15,200 (I think) and the VIN/Data tag was reissued and replaced. The new lower rated VIN tag was issued by Kaufman. The two GVW tags add up to exactly 26000 lbs. No CDL required based on these VIN tags.

I did this same thing with my 20k Take 3 (2 10k axles.) I ordered a replacement data tag that listed the GVW of the trailer at 15,599 (to go with my 11,400 door tag on my dually.)

I will admit that I was placed OOS once because my LIVE weight was over 26001 lbs, even though none of my axles was over individually. This is when I went and got my CDL and ordered ANOTHER VIN sticker from Take 3 listing the ORIGINAL GVW.

Since HE never has a LIVE weight equal to or higher than 26001 lbs,and his VIN plates add up to less than that same number... he IS legal.

He runs under my authority and would NOT be doing so if he were not legal. Period. We have been in business only 3 years, and have exactly 2 OOS orders in that time. 1 metioned above on me and 1 (on Haulin's first DAY) because he ran out of the house without the previous 8 days of signed log books. He had 7 of the 8 days... everything EXCEPT the log which represented "yesterday" which he left on the printer when he left. Niether of us have ever repeated those particular mistakes.

Finally, the trailer over 10k is an interpretation. For all the posturing that any trailer over 10k requires a CDL, I have NEVER seen a copy of an OOS order or citation. Someone please find one on SAFER and bring it to the party... I'll shut Haulin down imediately until he gets his CDL. No shit. No argument. Show me a citation or OOS order and he's done. I can say that because I seriously doubt anyone can show me either...

Now...

Is it smart? NO!
Would I do it again, knowing what I know today? NO!
Would I lease on another driver with the same setup? NO!
Hell, for that matter would I lease on another driver without a CDL? Um, NO!

From a CYA standpoint a CDL would be a smart move, but I have yet to get him convinced that the written part of the test is so easy it should be a joke... I think if we could get him over THAT hump of taking the written and getting the permit, then finishing out with the practical and actually obtaining that CDL would happen.

[pmmjarrett]

As soon as I started reading this thread I knew my name would come up sooner or later, thanks.

All I can say is I run about 30-40% of miles in Missouri and I have been inspected and never had a problem.

Oh and my truck and trailer have a gcwr of 26000 and an actual of around 13300.

I remember you having Kaufman re-rate the trailer. His combination IS legal for a non CDL driver. Doesn't need apportioned plates or iFTA either.




Just needs the proper operating authority for the areas he runs.;):rolleyes:

[h2oskibumz]

I remember you having Kaufman re-rate the trailer. His combination IS legal for a non CDL driver. Doesn't need apportioned plates or iFTA either.




Just needs the proper operating authority for the areas he runs.;):rolleyes:

Hmm, It took me 500+ words.
Mike: It took 23

What's wrong with this picture? LOL

>>>>><<<<<

Actually he DOES have IFTA and 36k license plates. A couple of reasons:

a) This was cheaper to do apportioned plates out of MO (@36k) than 26k plates would have cost in IL (by SEVERAL hundred dollars!)

b) If we ever screwed up and dispatched him on something that ended up being 26,090 lbs, at least a CDL driver could slip in and move his truck without being over the plated weight (at least without finding a driver that has BOTH a CDL and weighs 100 lbs less than Haulin!!!!)

c) If I ever needed to drive that truck pulling MY trailer with a load (at 8500 lbs empty its 3k heavier than his Kaufman) we could do it without the plating factor.

In the 16 months we've run 36k plates on that truck, we've not seen either b or c, but we HAVE seen $$$ in our pocket from a...

[pmmjarrett]

Hmm, It took me 500+ words.
Mike: It took 23

What's wrong with this picture? LOL

>>>>><<<<<

Actually he DOES have IFTA and 36k license plates. A couple of reasons:

a) This was cheaper to do apportioned plates out of MO (@36k) than 26k plates would have cost in IL (by SEVERAL hundred dollars!)

b) If we ever screwed up and dispatched him on something that ended up being 26,090 lbs, at least a CDL driver could slip in and move his truck without being over the plated weight (at least without finding a driver that has BOTH a CDL and weighs 100 lbs less than Haulin!!!!)

c) If I ever needed to drive that truck pulling MY trailer with a load (at 8500 lbs empty its 3k heavier than his Kaufman) we could do it without the plating factor.

In the 16 months we've run 36k plates on that truck, we've not seen either b or c, but we HAVE seen $$$ in our pocket from a...


I was too lazy to type 500 words again or you're ready to become the next IL governor.:D Smart move on the plates and IFTA

[Brisco]

From a CYA standpoint a CDL would be a smart move, but I have yet to get him convinced that the written part of the test is so easy it should be a joke... I think if we could get him over THAT hump of taking the written and getting the permit,

....and I'm glad to see Haulin didn't take it so "personally" this time. That's one thing we've always had on HRV, no CDL. I remember back 3 years ago when he'd tell us to STHU over it.:D

Yes Haulin, the written part on a CDL test is NOT hard at all. I only studied 1 weekend and passed it with a 94-96% (???) I think. Only took like 20-30 minutes to take that computer test too.

When you're picking up at the auctions, look at the other drivers driving the 8-10 car haulers, or at some of the drivers at Truckstops and think to yourself, Hell, if they can pass the test, so can I!! That in itself would be a great confidence booster when looking over the CDL manual studying to take the written test.

The "driving" part of the test should NOT be a problem whatsoever for you, know what I mean.

[Dorsey]

The written part is so easy you can go up there and pass it without even looking at the book. The walk around is a totally different story. You better study. When I first got my class A the guy shouldn't of passed me on the walk around but he did. His fiancé worked were I worked and that's why my boss sent me to him in the first place. The second time I studied my but off because it was going to make me or break me. The first time I was only 22 and didn't really care if I got them or not.

[pmmjarrett]

Karl

If the idiot that totaled my truck out in a truck stop parking lot after walking past my truck to get into his had a CDL, getting your CDL should be a piece of cake..... At least you ain't hit my truck yet. :D

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/carolinapowerstroke/tow%20haul/IMG00053-20100329-1808.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/carolinapowerstroke/tow%20haul/IMG00054-20100329-1809.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/carolinapowerstroke/tow%20haul/IMG00059-20100329-1819.jpg

[bth9461]

Mike that damage does not look that bad. Why was the truck totaled?

One reason to get the CDL, is that it will get harder to get them in the future and they have reduced the GVWR's (for a CDL) in the past, so you could find that this could happen again soon. They could go to anything over 10k might need a CDL. And IFTA could be reduced also.

Not having a CDL does put limitations on you. I would get the CDL A with air brakes and be done with it.


Brian

[h2oskibumz]

Not having a CDL does put limitations on you. I would get the CDL A with air brakes and be done with it.


Brian

Yeah I did the Class A, combination with an L (no air brake) restriction. I never thought I would need air brakes. Now considering a single axle tractor WITH air brakes I have to go through it all over again. Went last Friday and did the written and got the permit... Hopefully I can do the practical soon.

[pmmjarrett]

Mike that damage does not look that bad. Why was the truck totaled?

Brian

Brian, That's $12k worth of damage to a $10k truck. There's a lot of damage you can't see in the pics.


Damaged the ... Hood, fender extension, grill, grill trim, headlight trim, light wiring harness, windshield, front hub cap, radiator expansion tank, low coolant sensor, front tire, wheel, wheel studs, bumper, bumper mounts, bent the front of the frame of the truck where the bumper mounts bolt on. spot mirror, possible bent steering parts ( his trailer tandems plowed into me hard into the front tire and he was dragging my truck through the parking lot).........


Truck could be repaired.

[bth9461]

Brian, That's $12k worth of damage to a $10k truck. There's a lot of damage you can't see in the pics.


Damaged the ... Hood, fender extension, grill, grill trim, headlight trim, light wiring harness, windshield, front hub cap, radiator expansion tank, low coolant sensor, front tire, wheel, wheel studs, bumper, bumper mounts, bent the front of the frame of the truck where the bumper mounts bolt on. spot mirror, possible bent steering parts ( his trailer tandems plowed into me hard into the front tire and he was dragging my truck through the parking lot).........


Truck could be repaired.

Pictures don't always give you the true picture.

Did he say he was sorry? Or did he try and drag you to his next stop.:D

[haulin rv]

Man I hate being the center of attention. I have no fear about not passing the test, its purely a matter of being lazy and it not being a big deal to me. And yes I know being limited has cost me money but hey its not like I am eating Ramen noodles and mac and cheese everyday either.

[pmmjarrett]

Pictures don't always give you the true picture.

Did he say he was sorry? Or did he try and drag you to his next stop.:D


Sorry, that sumbeach will be sorry if I ever see him again.

When he got out, he walked up and said in his thick easten european accent "What we do now"

When he saw me snapping pics of his truck, door signs and plates he asked to "borrow my phone" when he had his own iphone on him.... Already seen him using it before he asked for mine, think he was trying to steal my phone and pics.

When I didn't give it to him and started to make a call he got in his truck, threw it in reverse and almost hit me and then took off. He made it 100' when the cop I was on the phone with pulled in LOL

He stops, jumps out and says "why you call him" and started acting like it was a $10 scratch on my truck telling me to bondo it up, a little spray paint and it'll be OK... WTF:mad:

He wouldn't exchange info with me, I had to get it from the cop.

[h2oskibumz]

... its purely a matter of being lazy and it not being a big deal to me...

Someone else want to take a crack at explaining to 'im that it IS a big deal to ME and why it SHOULD be a big deal to him, or do I have to do it????

Where's Cosgo when you need him?!?!

[cosgo]

Been there, done that, took more than 5 guys to their tests... no biggie. As a matter of fact, ill give ya a hint. set up your cdl appointment for Bradley, IL. Make it as early as possible. You'll run into the "older" crowd (employee wise) makes the test super simple!!

[LBZ]

The link I posted up should grade each test & yes the core knowledge is pretty basic stuff other than a couple of things. But you do need to read the book Air Brake or any other endorsement you may want. Hazmat always made me say bad words & finally dropped it when they wanted the fingerprint/background/additional fundraiser for it.

As for the rest of it, we probably need to step back & let HRV & H20 discuss their plans going forward about this.

[twoduners11]

speaking as someone who just took the written a couple weeks ago. i couldnt believe all the air brake stuff that was on the general knowledge test. i have never even sat my butt in a vehicle with air brakes so i did get a lot of those questions wrong, but still managed to pass.
if someone like me, who has only towed for recreation can pass....

[bth9461]

speaking as someone who just took the written a couple weeks ago. i couldnt believe all the air brake stuff that was on the general knowledge test. i have never even sat my butt in a vehicle with air brakes so i did get a lot of those questions wrong, but still managed to pass.
if someone like me, who has only towed for recreation can pass....

That surprised me also, even if you only want a CDL A with no air brakes, study that section. I would say there were maybe about 5 questions on the regular test concerning air brakes.

1 year later I was back and need to retest for the Air brakes. Had to do the walk around and the skills portion. Did it in a Dump truck, as I only needed the air brakes.

[bth9461]

Sorry, that sumbeach will be sorry if I ever see him again.

When he got out, he walked up and said in his thick easten european accent "What we do now"

When he saw me snapping pics of his truck, door signs and plates he asked to "borrow my phone" when he had his own iphone on him.... Already seen him using it before he asked for mine, think he was trying to steal my phone and pics.

When I didn't give it to him and started to make a call he got in his truck, threw it in reverse and almost hit me and then took off. He made it 100' when the cop I was on the phone with pulled in LOL

He stops, jumps out and says "why you call him" and started acting like it was a $10 scratch on my truck telling me to bondo it up, a little spray paint and it'll be OK... WTF:mad:

He wouldn't exchange info with me, I had to get it from the cop.

I had a feeling this was going to be the story. Culturally these guys are a long way from being Americans yet, maybe their kids. I find them to be very difficult to deal with. Especially if you haul something for them.

Their trucker buddies are a step below the business owners. I some times wonder if they really want to be AMERICANS, they seem to cling very hard to the old world ways, and make no attempt to fit in. If I moved to a new country and intended to stay, I would bend over backwards to fit in with my new country.

Brian

[tbc27143]

They seem to think that America is screwed up and we should change our ways to the ways of the place they left. If they don't like the way we do it here and don't like our culture then go the hell back to where they came from.

[bth9461]

They seem to think that America is screwed up and we should change our ways to the ways of the place they left. If they don't like the way we do it here and don't like our culture then go the hell back to where they came from.

Now that is the TC, I remember, man I love the way you Texans say things.

[tbc27143]

Just being truthful, the way my Daddy raised me.

[h2oskibumz]

Just being truthful, the way my Daddy raised me.

LOL. Makes me think of a conversation I had with my Dad at about 18... My whole life he had taught me to be honest and to speak my mind. When I was about 18 he said to me:

"Son, I know I have always said to be honest, but could you try not to be so BRUTALLY honest about some things?"

Its a conversation I'll never forget, but I never learned that particular part of the lesson!

[tbc27143]

To me there is no gray, it all black and white. It is true or not true and I call it the way I see it. That is way most real pure bred Texans are. Transplants don't usually see it that way.